Utah scout leaders who toppled ancient rock: 'We did something right the wrong way'

Under fire from the Boy Scouts of America and under investigation by law enforcement, two Utah troop leaders who taped themselves gleefully toppling a boulder from a Jurassic-era rock formation in a state park said Friday they should have been more hands-off.

Glenn Taylor and Dave Hall told NBC News that they acted with good intentions, pushing the massive rock before it could fall on its own and hurt someone, but now wish they had just alerted a ranger.

"We did something right the wrong way," Taylor said.

Taylor and Hall, who were on a trip to Goblin Valley State Park with eight Boy Scouts, recorded the moment they dislodged the rock from the spot it had been perched for 170 million years.

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The video, which was posted to YouTube by the Salt Lake Tribune, shows them cheering and high-fiving, crowing that they had saved lives. Taylor struck a pro-wrestling strongman pose and Hall sang the 1990 dance-party hit, "Wiggle It — Just a Little Bit."

“We have now modified Goblin Valley,” Hall declared on the video.

The footage brought a scolding from the Boy Scouts of America, which has a "Leave No Trace" policy for outdoors activities.

“We are shocked and disappointed by this reprehensible behavior," Deron Smith, a spokesman for the venerable scouting group, said in a statement on Friday.

"The isolated actions of these individuals are absolutely counter to our beliefs and what we teach," Smith said. "We are reviewing this matter and will take appropriate action.”

The Emery County Attorney's office is looking into possible criminal charges against the duo, although the state Attorney General's Office has decided not to intervene.

The longtime scout leaders were aghast that they could face a felony charge for their antics, and said the act was not malicious in any way, although an "adrenaline rush" may have made it look that way.

They said they were just enjoying a day of their young charges climbing over the rock formations, which is permitted under park rules.

"We came across this two- to three-thousand-pound boulder that was resting on about an inch-and-a-half-thick, razor-thin ledge of dirt," Hall said.

"Upon putting a little pressure on it, you could see that it was moving and just then a couple of families walked up right below that rock and went around it…and stopped for a family photo.

"And the thought that went through our minds was if this would have fallen while they were coming up that valley, up that very well-used walkway, numerous fatalities would have happened."

In retrospect, they say, they should have just told a ranger of the hazard.

Instead, Taylor went up to the rock "and with one arm put a little bit of pressure on that [and] it went right over," said Hall, who acted as cameraman.

Taylor admitted they were amped up by the sight, but said it wasn't done for kicks.

"It was spectacular to watch something like that," he said. "It was not 'let's go tear Goblin Valley down.'"

Hall said one of the scouts they were watching could easily have knocked over the boulder by accident.

"I wonder if we just jumped on the rock and it fell, would this be a felony?" he said.

But park officials said the pair were out of line.

“This is not behavior that is appreciated or should exist in state parks,” Eugene Swalberg, a spokesman for the park system, told the Deseret News.

“This has been formed for literally millions of years, and it’s supposed to last for a long time. It doesn’t need individuals doing the work of Mother Nature.”

Message from France to U.S.: Stop intercepting our phone calls

London (CNN) -- French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius met Tuesday morning with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry to discuss allegations that the National Security Agency intercepted more than 70 million phone calls in France over a 30-day period.

Fabius called the practice unacceptable and told Kerry that it must stop, the French Foreign Ministry said in a statement. The pair also discussed the situation in Syria ahead of a "Friends of Syria" meeting that's taking place in London on Tuesday.

The top diplomats huddled a day after the details of the alleged spying appeared in the French newspaper Le Monde.

U.S. President Barack Obama and French President Francois Hollande spoke Monday on the matter, according to a White House statement.

"The President and President Hollande discussed recent disclosures in the press -- some of which have distorted our activities and some of which raise legitimate questions for our friends and allies about how these capabilities are employed," the statement said. "The President made clear that the United States has begun to review the way that we gather intelligence, so that we properly balance the legitimate security concerns of our citizens and allies with the privacy concerns that all people share."

A news release from Hollande's office said he expressed his "deep disapproval with regard to these practices" to Obama and that such alleged activities would be unacceptable between allies and friends.

The two presidents agreed that French and American intelligence services will cooperate on investigating the report.

Intercepting millions of calls

The NSA monitored the phone calls made in France, Le Monde reported Monday, citing documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.

The intercepts took place from December 10, 2012, to January 8, 2013, the article reported. An NSA graph shows an average of 3 million data intercepts a day.

According to Le Monde, this is how the system worked: "When a telephone number is used in France, it activates a signal which automatically triggers the recording of the call. Apparently this surveillance system also picks up SMS (text) messages and their content using key words. Finally, the NSA apparently stores the history of the connections of each target -- or the meta-data."

It wasn't immediately clear from the article if the conversations were recorded or just the data surrounding each call.

Other spying allegations

The report follows weekend article in the German news magazine Der Spiegel that said the NSA "systematically" eavesdropped on the Mexican government. It hacked the public e-mail account of former Mexican President Felipe Calderon, which was also used by Cabinet members, according to Der Spiegel.

The magazine also quoted documents leaked by Snowden.

"This practice is unacceptable, illegitimate and against Mexican and international law," Mexico's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

It added that it would push for a speedy investigation.

"In a relationship between neighbors and partners, there is no room for the practices alleged to have taken place," the ministry said.

A senior U.S. State Department official told CNN that the Mexican government reached out about the report and that the two governments will be discussing it via diplomatic channels.

In September, Mexico and Brazil summoned U.S. ambassadors after media reports that the United States had spied on their countries' presidents. Those reports were also based on documents leaked by Snowden.

Nevada school shooting: Teacher killed by 'nice kid' who was bullied, girl says

No one knows why he picked this day, this time, these victims.

It was the first day back from fall break at Sparks Middle School. Students milled about, waiting to hear the morning bell.

Within moments, two 12-year-old students were wounded. A beloved teacher and military veteran lay dead. And the young shooter -- armed with his parents' gun -- took his own life, silencing any way of understanding what he was thinking.

'I think he took out his bullying'

Before Monday morning, the young gunman seemed like the antithesis of a school shooter.

"He was really a nice kid," schoolmate Amaya Newton told CNN. "He would make you smile when you were having bad day."

But for whatever reason, the boy, whom authorities have not identified, took his parents' handgun to school, a federal law enforcement source said.

"I believe it was because I saw him getting bullied a couple of times, and I think he took out his bullying," Amaya said.

Amaya said she thought the two students at the Nevada school were friends of the shooter.

"It's too early to say whether he was targeting specific people or just going on an indiscriminate shooting spree," Reno police Deputy Chief Tom Robinson said.

Surviving Afghanistan, but not school

True to his character, Mike Landsberry rushed to help others when chaos erupted.

The retired Marine, a popular math teacher at Sparks Middle School, tried to help when the two wounded students were shot.

A witness told the Reno Gazette-Journal that Landsberry was trying to intervene when he was killed by the shooter.

"That was the kind of person that Michael was," his brother, Reggie Landsberry, said. "He was the kind of person that if somebody needed help, he would be there."

Sparks Mayor Geno Martini remarked at the irony.

"It's very unfortunate that (the life of) someone like that, who protected our country over there and came back alive ... had to be taken at his work, at a school," Martini said.

Landsberry joined the Marine Corps in 1986, attained the rank of corporal and served as a field wireman, Marine spokeswoman Maj. Shawn Haney said.

On his school website, the teacher posted pictures of himself hiking in the wilderness and standing with a weapon beside an armored vehicle.

"One of my goals is to earn your respect while you earn mine," he wrote in a message to students. "I believe that with mutual respect that the classroom environment will run smoothly."

A Facebook memorial page for the teacher had more than 10,000 "likes" by early Tuesday morning. Thousands more honored him on a "Rest Easy Mr. Landsberry" page.

Reigniting the national debate

Both of the wounded students were hospitalized in stable condition Monday night, Sparks Deputy Chief Tom Miller said.

Authorities have not released their names.

Sparks Middle School will be closed for the rest of the week as the shooting reignites the national debate over gun violence and school safety.

Last week, a student at an Austin, Texas, high school killed himself in front of other students.

In August, a student at a high school in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, shot and wounded another student in the neck.

Another shooting took place at an Atlanta middle school in January, though no one was hit.

That same month, a California high school student wounded two people, one seriously.

The Nevada shooting also comes almost a year after a gunman killed 26 people at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, igniting nationwide debate over gun violence and school safety.

Since the Newtown shootings last December, proposed school security plans across the country have included arming teachers, adding armed security guards and bringing bulletproof backpacks and whiteboards.

Some teachers have even started taking self-defense and combat classes in case a shooter enters their school. One class teaches how to escape or take cover but focused most of its four hours on how to fight and disarm an attacker -- something few educators have ever considered how to do.

Teachers train to face school shooters

The mother of a student killed in Newtown said Monday's shooting reinforces the need to find solutions to keep students safe.

"The unthinkable has happened yet again, this time in Sparks, Nevada," Nicole Hockley said in a statement. " It's moments like this that demand that we unite as parents to find common sense solutions that keep our children -- all children -- safe, and prevent these tragedies from happening again and again."

But what those solutions are will remain fuel for perpetual debate.

Builders of Obama's Health Website Saw Red Flags

Crammed into conference rooms with pizza for dinner, some programmers building the Obama administration's showcase health insurance website were growing increasingly stressed. Some worked past 10 p.m., energy drinks in hand. Others rewrote computer code over and over to meet what they considered last-minute requests for changes from the government or other contractors.

As questions mount over the website's failure, insider interviews and a review of technical specifications by The Associated Press found a mind-numbingly complex system put together by harried programmers who pushed out a final product that congressional investigators said was tested by the government and not private developers with more expertise.

Project developers who spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity — because they feared they would otherwise be fired — said they raised doubts among themselves whether the website could be ready in time. They complained openly to each other about what they considered tight and unrealistic deadlines. One was nearly brought to tears over the stress of finishing on time, one developer said. Website builders saw red flags for months.

A review of internal architectural diagrams obtained by the AP revealed the system's complexity. Insurance applicants have a host of personal information verified, including income and immigration status. The system connects to other federal computer networks, including ones at the Social Security Administration, IRS, Veterans Administration, Office of Personnel Management and the Peace Corps.

President Barack Obama on Monday acknowledged technical problems that he described as "kinks in the system." He also promised a "tech surge" by leading technology talent to repair the painfully slow and often unresponsive website that has frustrated Americans trying to enroll online for insurance plans at the center of Obama's health care law.

But in remarks at a Rose Garden event, Obama offered no explanation for the failure except to note that high traffic to the website caused some of the slowdowns. He said it had been visited nearly 20 million times — fewer monthly visits so far than many commercial websites, such as PayPal, AOL, Wikipedia or Pinterest.

"The problem has been that the website that's supposed to make it easy to apply for and purchase the insurance is not working the way it should for everybody," Obama said. "There's no sugarcoating it. The website has been too slow. People have been getting stuck during the application process. And I think it's fair to say that nobody is more frustrated by that than I am."

The online system was envisioned as a simple way for people without health insurance to comparison-shop among competing plans offered in their state, pick their preferred level of coverage and cost and sign up. For many, it's not worked out that way so far.

Just weeks before the launch of HealthCare.gov on Oct. 1, one programmer said, colleagues huddled in conference rooms trying to patch "bugs," or deficiencies in computer code. Unresolved problems led to visitors experiencing cryptic error messages or enduring long waits trying to sign up.

Congressional investigators have concluded that the government's Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, not private software developers, tested the exchange's computer systems during the final weeks. That task, known as integration testing, is usually handled by software companies because it ferrets out problems before the public sees the final product.

The government spent at least $394 million in contracts to build the federal health care exchange and the data hub. Those contracts included major awards to Virginia-based CGI Federal Inc., Maryland-based Quality Software Services Inc. and Booz Allen Hamilton Inc.

CGI Federal said in a statement Monday it was working with the government and other contractors "around the clock" to improve the system, which it called "complex, ambitious and unprecedented."

The schematics from late 2012 show how officials designated a "data services hub" — a traffic cop for managing information — in lieu of a design that would have allowed state exchanges to connect directly to government servers when verifying an applicant's information. On Sunday, the Health and Human Services Department said the data hub was working but not meeting public expectations: "We are committed to doing better."

Administration officials so far have refused to say how many people actually have managed to enroll in insurance during the three weeks since the new marketplaces became available. Without enrollment numbers, it's impossible to know whether the program is on track to reach projections from the Congressional Budget Office that 7 million people would gain coverage during the first year the exchanges were available.

Instead, officials have selectively cited figures that put the insurance exchanges in a positive light. They say more than 19 million people have logged on to the federal website and nearly 500,000 have filled out applications for insurance through both the federal and state-run sites.

The flood of computer problems since the website went online has been deeply embarrassing for the White House. The snags have called into question whether the administration is capable of implementing the complex policy and why senior administration officials — including the president — appear to have been unaware of the scope of the problems when the exchange sites opened.

Even as the president spoke at the Rose Garden, more problems were coming to light. The administration acknowledged that a planned upgrade to the website had been postponed indefinitely and that online Spanish-language signups would remain unavailable, despite a promise to Hispanic groups that the capability would start this week. And the government tweaked the website's home page so visitors can now view phone numbers to apply the old-fashioned way or window-shop for insurance rates without registering first.

The House Energy and Commerce Committee was expected to conduct an oversight hearing Thursday, probably without Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius testifying. She could testify on Capitol Hill on the subject as early as next week.

Uninsured Americans have until about mid-February to sign up for coverage if they are to meet the law's requirement that they be insured by the end of March. If they don't, they will face a penalty.

On Monday, the White House advised people frustrated by the online tangle that they can enroll by calling 1-800-318-2596 in a process that should take 25 minutes for an individual or 45 minutes for a family. Assistance is also available in communities from helpers who can be found at LocalHelp.HealthCare.gov.

Man seen toppling boulder claims 'debilitating injuries' from car crash in recent lawsuit

Los Angeles (CNN) -- One of the men who toppled an ancient boulder in Utah's Goblin Valley State Park last week filed a personal injury lawsuit just a few weeks earlier, claiming he suffers from "serious, permanent and debilitating injuries."

Video of Glenn Taylor shoving the huge rock off a slender pedestal where it rested for millions of years went viral online and prompted media scrutiny. As his friend sang "Wiggle it, just a little bit," Taylor pushed the delicate sculpture over, which was followed by laughter and high fives with his son.

The attention has led to revelations that Taylor filed a personal injury lawsuit in September, claiming he had suffered "serious, permanent and debilitating injuries" from a 4-year-old car crash.

"Someone with a bad back who's disabled, who can't enjoy life, to me, doesn't step up and push a rock that big off the base," the defendant in Taylor's lawsuit, Alan MacDonald, told Salt Lake City television station KTVX.

'You didn't see how hard I pushed'

Taylor's lawyer did not return calls for comment. But when CNN affiliate KUTV noted that Taylor didn't look particularly debilitated in the video, he replied, "You didn't see how hard I pushed."

CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos said when someone has a pending disability lawsuit, "you'd think they'd avoid the camera like the plague.

"But instead, they think no one will ever see it or repercussions will ever come of it," Cevallos said.

'Glenn saved his life'

Goblin Valley, in southern Utah, is home to thousands of the mushroom-shaped rocks -- known to locals as goblins -- that developed as millions of years of winds and water eroded sandstone cliffs.

Taylor and two other men were leading a Boy Scout group on a visit to the park when the incident happened.

The men, all from Utah, defended their actions in interviews last week, saying the delicate structure posed a threat to visitors.

"We have now modified Goblin Valley, a new Goblin Valley exists," David Hall, who shot the video, is heard saying at the end of it. 

"That's crazy that it was held up just by that little bit of dirt. Some little kid was about ready to walk down here and die and Glenn saved his life by getting the boulder out of the way. So it's all about saving lives here at Goblin Valley. Saving lives. That's what we're all about."

Hall told Utah television station KUTV that the boulder seemed unstable. "That wasn't going to last very long at all," he told the CNN affiliate. "One gust of wind and a family's dead."

Asked if he would do it again, he said, "Absolutely, absolutely."

'Didn't look like a stiff wind to me'

Park officials suggested the men broke the law by defacing a state park.

Jeff Rasmussen, the deputy director of Utah State Parks and Recreation, said, "It didn't look like a stiff wind to me."

"Obviously, we're very concerned and upset that somebody would come and destroy this natural wonder that took millions of years to be formed," he told KUTV.

In his 22 years on the job, he said he had not heard of any goblins rolling off their pedestals.

Connection to Arias trial

All three have been booted from their Boy Scout leadership roles.

The National Boy Scouts of America and the organization's Utah National Parks Council issued almost simultaneous and similar statements Monday addressing the men's actions.

The local council statement said the former leaders violated the Scouts' principle of "Leave no trace," which it said "teaches the value of natural areas and the methods we can use to help protect and conserve these areas for future generations."

Meanwhile, the man who shot the video, Hall, is tied to another nationally publicized case: the Jodi Arias murder trial.

Throughout the Arias trial, Hall appeared numerous times on HLN to talk about the life and legacy of his friend Travis Alexander and to paint an unflattering picture of his killer, Arias.

Man seen toppling boulder claims 'debilitating injuries' from car crash in recent lawsuit

Los Angeles (CNN) -- One of the men who toppled an ancient boulder in Utah's Goblin Valley State Park last week filed a personal injury lawsuit just a few weeks earlier, claiming he suffers from "serious, permanent and debilitating injuries."

Video of Glenn Taylor shoving the huge rock off a slender pedestal where it rested for millions of years went viral online and prompted media scrutiny. As his friend sang "Wiggle it, just a little bit," Taylor pushed the delicate sculpture over, which was followed by laughter and high fives with his son.

The attention has led to revelations that Taylor filed a personal injury lawsuit in September, claiming he had suffered "serious, permanent and debilitating injuries" from a 4-year-old car crash.

"Someone with a bad back who's disabled, who can't enjoy life, to me, doesn't step up and push a rock that big off the base," the defendant in Taylor's lawsuit, Alan MacDonald, told Salt Lake City television station KTVX.

'You didn't see how hard I pushed'

Taylor's lawyer did not return calls for comment. But when CNN affiliate KUTV noted that Taylor didn't look particularly debilitated in the video, he replied, "You didn't see how hard I pushed."

CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos said when someone has a pending disability lawsuit, "you'd think they'd avoid the camera like the plague.

"But instead, they think no one will ever see it or repercussions will ever come of it," Cevallos said.

'Glenn saved his life'

Goblin Valley, in southern Utah, is home to thousands of the mushroom-shaped rocks -- known to locals as goblins -- that developed as millions of years of winds and water eroded sandstone cliffs.

Taylor and two other men were leading a Boy Scout group on a visit to the park when the incident happened.

The men, all from Utah, defended their actions in interviews last week, saying the delicate structure posed a threat to visitors.

"We have now modified Goblin Valley, a new Goblin Valley exists," David Hall, who shot the video, is heard saying at the end of it. 

"That's crazy that it was held up just by that little bit of dirt. Some little kid was about ready to walk down here and die and Glenn saved his life by getting the boulder out of the way. So it's all about saving lives here at Goblin Valley. Saving lives. That's what we're all about."

Hall told Utah television station KUTV that the boulder seemed unstable. "That wasn't going to last very long at all," he told the CNN affiliate. "One gust of wind and a family's dead."

Asked if he would do it again, he said, "Absolutely, absolutely."

'Didn't look like a stiff wind to me'

Park officials suggested the men broke the law by defacing a state park.

Jeff Rasmussen, the deputy director of Utah State Parks and Recreation, said, "It didn't look like a stiff wind to me."

"Obviously, we're very concerned and upset that somebody would come and destroy this natural wonder that took millions of years to be formed," he told KUTV.

In his 22 years on the job, he said he had not heard of any goblins rolling off their pedestals.

Connection to Arias trial

All three have been booted from their Boy Scout leadership roles.

The National Boy Scouts of America and the organization's Utah National Parks Council issued almost simultaneous and similar statements Monday addressing the men's actions.

The local council statement said the former leaders violated the Scouts' principle of "Leave no trace," which it said "teaches the value of natural areas and the methods we can use to help protect and conserve these areas for future generations."

Meanwhile, the man who shot the video, Hall, is tied to another nationally publicized case: the Jodi Arias murder trial.

Throughout the Arias trial, Hall appeared numerous times on HLN to talk about the life and legacy of his friend Travis Alexander and to paint an unflattering picture of his killer, Arias.

Obamacare's rocky start: Hiccup or sure sign of failure?

In the eyes of some Republicans, one of the cruelest ironies of the recent government shutdown was its overshadowing of the rollout of Obamacare's insurance exchanges - an inauspicious, glitch-ridden debut that even the law's most ardent supporters were hard-pressed to defend.

The circus that attended the shutdown prevented the public and the media from focusing more completely on the website problems that stymied thousands who tried to explore the online insurance marketplace on healthcare.gov. Stories about privacy concerns and technological glitches that might have led evening newscasts, for example, were pushed to the back-burner by the fiscal food fight.

But now, with the budget war abated, at least temporarily, Obamacare's clumsy debut is again front-and-center on the political stage. And for Democrats, that could be a big problem.

It's clear they're trying to get out in front of the growing controversy. A senior administration official tells CBS News that President Obama is very upset with the problematic rollout, and that he finds the glitches with the website unacceptable.

On Monday, Mr. Obama will host an event at the White House to "to discuss how the health care law is strengthening health benefits and coverage for Americans," according to a White House official. He will be joined at the event by people who are already benefitting from the law, including some who have already managed to sign up for health insurance through the exchanges.

Democrats in the White House and Congress insist that, despite the rough beginning, the law will eventually accomplish exactly what it set out to do. The administration has announced that nearly half a million people had already completed applications - only the first step in the process, but a substantial one.

"The product - quality, affordable insurance - is good, and if anything, the interest and demand at the launch of HealthCare.gov proves just how urgently Americans want and need access to these new health care options," the White House official explained.

"The number one worry before we started was: Are people going to be interested? Will people sign up?" recalled Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press." And based on the number of applications submitted, he explained, "the answer to that is, overwhelming, yes."

"I think the computer glitches are being used by a good number of people who never wanted Obamacare in the first place as an excuse to just sort of bash it," he said.

The technological problems have "to be fixed," added House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., on ABC's "This Week." "But what doesn't have to be fixed is the fact that tens of millions more people will have access to affordable, quality health care."

The administration has vowed to redouble its efforts to induct consumers into the exchanges, taking the website offline at various intervals for repairs and expanding the availability of offline options - like call centers or paper applications - to allow people to sign up for insurance in the absence of a functioning website.

But Republicans, with the shutdown only just past, are already having a field day with the lingering problems surrounding the Obamacare rollout. Some are openly demanding the resignation of Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius.

"Absolutely she should resign," said Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, on CNN. "Why? Because the program she implemented, Obamacare, is a disaster. It's not working. It's hurting people all across this country." Cruz joined Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kansas, a long-time friend of the Sebelius family, and others demanding her ouster.

Some Republicans, including Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and Roy Blunt, R-Mo., struck a more circumspect tone, saying the problems are unacceptable but adding that Sebelius should answer to Congress for them. Even Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., a close ally of the administration, predicted on "Fox News Sunday" that the secretary would eventually testify before Congress.

One concern voiced by conservatives is that an insufficient number of people might sign up - or that only unhealthy people would summon the patience to work through the glitches and purchase insurance - which could send insurance premiums skyrocketing on the exchanges.

"if enough people don't sign up for these exchanges, the rates on these exchanges are going to be astronomical and they're going to undermine the entire private health insurance industry in the country," said Rubio on "Fox News Sunday."

In light of concerns about cost and technology, some Republicans are vowing to continue trying to dismantle the law. Cruz pointedly refused to rule out a second government shutdown aimed at undoing Obamacare when the current spending bill expires in January. "There are a lot of politicians in Washington that want to put Obamacare behind us, say OK, fine. No more. No more discussing Obamacare. And you know what? The American people are not satisfied with that," he said. "And my view, we need to keep as our priority providing real relief for the people who are hurting because of Obamacare."

But others are content to assume the law will eventually collapse under its own weight, portraying the technological glitches as just the first of many fiascoes to come.

"This is just the beginning of the problems associated with a massive restructuring of one fifth of our economy, and there's going to be a whole lot more problems associated with this before it's done," said McCain on CNN.

"Obamacare is going to fail on its own right," predicted Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., on NBC's "Meet the Press." "The fact is that the sick people are signing up, the healthy aren't. And they're not going to because the deductibles are so high and the cost is going to be high."

2 women shot, killed at Detroit senior center

Police say that a 65-year-old man is in custody after he allegedly shot and killed 2 women at a Detroit senior center where the three of them lived. 

MyFoxDetroit.com reported that Mike Reda, a resident at the Pablo Davis Elder Living Center, was found shortly after he slipped out a side door of the center following the shooting. 

A neighbor, Paul Frantangelo, told the station that he was sitting outside the complex when he saw Reda armed with an AK-47. 

"He told me to get on the ground and start praying," Frantangelo said. "He let off a round and he shot my friend in the head. My ears were starting to ring."

The identifies of the women have not been released, but MyFoxDetroit reported that both knew Reda and lived at the center. The Associated Press reported that Reda blamed the two women for his breakup with his girlfriend and that the shooting occurred after an argument between the two. 

Police spokeswoman Kelly Miner told The Associated Press the man shot the first woman, who was in her 50s, as she sat on a bench outside the apartment building. Miner said he then went inside and shot the second woman, who was in her 60s.

Police pledge more arrests in escaped inmate case

PANAMA CITY BEACH, Fla. (AP) — Investigators worked to fulfill their pledge to find and arrest the people who helped two Florida inmates escape from prison using forged documents.

The two convicted killers were back in custody and being grilled by authorities after they were captured without incident over the weekend at a motel in Panama City. Meanwhile, corrections officials were planning to hold meetings with court clerks to discuss how to prevent other inmates from using fake papers to escape.

The investigation of the escape by Joseph Jenkins and Charles Walker is now focusing on who forged the papers for them, who helped the men elude police after the trickery was discovered and who was coming to pick them up at the hotel in Panama City.

"I can tell you, there will be more arrests," Florida Department of Law Enforcement Commissioner Gerald Bailey said at a news conference Sunday.

"We will be backtracking to those who helped carry out this fraud and along the way we will be looking closely at anyone who may have helped harbor these fugitives," Bailey said.

Jenkins and Walker, both 34, were captured Saturday night at the Coconut Grove Motor Inn in Panama City Beach, a touristy area of putt-putt courses and go-kart tracks.

The men, who had fled the Orlando area after word of their ruse became public, did not know law enforcement was on the way to Panama City. They were waiting in the motel for someone to arrive from Atlanta to take them out of state, Bailey said, adding that authorities don't yet know who that person was or where the convicts planned to go. Florida investigators are working with their counterparts in Georgia.

"They had to have had help — a lot of help — to get to where they were last night," Bailey said. He said the men were unarmed and didn't have much money.

Bailey's department is pursuing a tip that someone was offering to forge documents for prisoners for $8,000. He said there are at least two other recent cases where prisoners were thwarted trying to use fake documents to escape.

"The documents themselves looked good, they looked official," Bailey said, although they contained the signatures of people who normally don't deal with release documents, something that maybe should have raised questions, he said.

Meanwhile, Corrections Secretary Michael Crews scheduled a meeting with court clerks on Monday to find ways to prevent future escapes through bogus documents.

"It is embarrassing, but my concentration at this point is making sure that we come up with a process and a procedure that prohibits this from happening in the future," Crews told a news conference.

Crews has already ordered his department to begin verifying the legitimacy of early-release orders with a judge, not just court clerks. He said his department receives a few thousand such orders each year, although he acknowledged that reduced sentences in murder cases are rare.

He also expressed relief that the men were captured.

"I did a lot of praying for the last five or six days," he said. "To say we're thankful I think is probably an understatement. These were two hardened, convicted felons and the thought of them being out there in our state caused me great concern."

The two prisoners had not been traveling together, but hooked up once word of the forgeries became public and traveled from Orlando to Panama City, said Frank Chiumento (Sha MENTO), chief of the U.S. Marshals Service for Florida and the Caribbean.

Chiumento told The Associated Press on Sunday that Jenkins and Walker knew their time on the run was limited once their ruse had been uncovered. They were under surveillance for about two and a half days, and the men were surprised when authorities finally knocked on their motel door.

Jenkins and Walker were both serving life sentences at the Franklin Correctional Facility in the Panhandle before they walked free without anyone realizing the paperwork, complete with case numbers and a judge's forged signature, was bogus. The documents seemingly reduced their life sentences to 15 years.

Jenkins was released first on Sept. 27 and registered himself as a felon Sept. 30 in an Orlando jail. Walker was released Oct. 8 and also registered himself with authorities three days later.

Family members said they thought the releases were legitimate and that the convicts even spent time with their relatives before they disappeared. Hours before the capture, the inmates' families had held a news conference in Orlando — 350 miles away — urging them to surrender.

Jenkins had been locked up since the 1998 killing and botched robbery of Roscoe Pugh, an Orlando man. It wasn't until Tuesday, when one of Pugh's relatives contacted the state attorney's office to let them know Jenkins had been let out, that authorities knew of the escape.

Prosecutors reviewed Jenkins' case file and quickly discovered the forged paperwork, including motions from prosecutors to correct "illegal" sentences, accompanied by orders allegedly filed by Judge Belvin Perry within the last couple of months. The orders granted a 15-year sentence.

Study: 15 percent of US youth out of school, work

WASHINGTON — Almost 6 million young people are neither in school nor working, according to a study released Monday.

That's almost 15 percent of those aged 16 to 24 who have neither desk nor job, according to The Opportunity Nation coalition, which wrote the report.

Other studies have shown that idle young adults are missing out on a window to build skills they will need later in life or use the knowledge they acquired in college. Without those experiences, they are less likely to command higher salaries and more likely to be an economic drain on their communities.

"This is not a group that we can write off. They just need a chance," said Mark Edwards, executive director of the coalition of businesses, advocacy groups, policy experts and nonprofit organizations dedicated to increasing economic mobility. "The tendency is to see them as lost souls and see them as unsavable. They are not."

But changing the dynamic is not going to be easy.

The coalition also finds that 49 states have seen an increase in the number of families living in poverty and 45 states have seen household median incomes fall in the last year. The dour report underscores the challenges young adults face now and foretell challenges they are likely to face as they get older.

A young person's community is often closely tied to his or her success. The Opportunity Nation report tracked 16 factors — Internet access, college graduation rates, income inequality and public safety among them — and identified states that were doing well for its young people.

Topping the list of supportive states are Vermont, Minnesota and North Dakota. At the bottom? Nevada, Mississippi and New Mexico.

"Their destiny is too often determined by their ZIP code," said Charlie Mangiardi, who works with Year Up, a nonprofit that trains young adults for careers and helps them find jobs.

"We have the supply. We don't have a lack of young people who need this opportunity," Mangiardi added.

Just look at some of the nation's largest cities. Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Miami, Philadelphia, New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta and Riverside, Calif., all have more than 100,000 idle youth, the Opportunity Nation report found.

"Often times they lack the social capital in life," Mangiardi said. "There's a whole pool of talent that is motivated, loyal and hardworking." They just can't get through an employer's door, he added.

That's why Year Up spends a year working with high school graduates to teach them career skills such as computer programming or equipment repair they can use when the program ends. It also includes life coaching so they can learn skills such as time management. More than 4,500 young adults from urban areas have completed the program and 84 percent of them have found work.

But it's a far tougher time for other young people.

In Mississippi and West Virginia, 1 in 5 young people are idle — higher than their older neighbors. Mississippi has an overall unemployment rate of 8 percent, while West Virginia posts about 7 percent. Like most states, they saw their unemployment rate fall since 2011, but researchers caution that shift could come from fewer residents looking for work and from more who had simply given up their search for jobs.

And it's not as though the challenges emerge from nowhere. Quality early childhood programs help students from poor families overcome societal hurdles, and on-time high school graduation rates often follow quality schools — other factors Opportunity Nation examined in its report.

"A lot of times we don't want to look at data because we don't want to be depressed," said Rob Denson, president of Des Moines Area Community College in Iowa.

But it's an uncomfortable reality that needs to be addressed, he said.

Using previous years' reports from Opportunity Nation, Denson helped rally community organizations in his city to develop a pilot program to help students as young as 14 find summer work.

"When we got the index, it really allowed us to use it as a rallying point for all of the community-based organizations we work with to say, 'Look, this is what the world sees when they look at Iowa,'" he said.

Starting next summer, Des Moines students will be placed in paying jobs, part of a citywide collaboration to help its urban communities. It will help older adults, as well, because crime rates are expected to fall, he said.

"If they're not in school or at work," Denson said, "they're not usually doing something positive."

Obamacare's Next Shoe To Drop: People Buying Coverage On The Exchanges Will Owe More Money Than They're Being Told

The Obama Administration announced a “tech surge” to try and repair the busted Obamacare web site, but even bigger problems lie ahead. The next wave of woes will relate to the coverage itself, and will saddle some consumers with significant and unexpected costs.

People will undoubtedly find that subsidies that they received were miscalculated, and that they owe more money than they were told.

The current IT problems are a sideshow to these looming harms. The next wave of troubles will be hard to fix. The President will need to seek relief from Congress.

Under Obamacare, consumers are eligible to benefit from two different streams of subsidies.

The first category of subsidies (dubbed “premium tax credits”) is based on family income, and will be used to offset the cost of buying the health plans.

The second category of subsidies is less well known.

Dubbed the “cost-sharing subsidies,” these payments help pay for out-of-pocket expenses such as deductibles and co-pays. The “cost-sharing subsidies” also provide a sort of re-insurance to lower someone’s costs when they hit their catastrophic limits as a result of a major illness.

Problems with the way both categories of subsidies are being calculated will saddle consumers with unexpected costs.

On that first category of subsidies — the “tax credits” meant to offset the premium cost of health plans — it’s now clear that a lot of the current IT problems on Healthcare.gov stem directly from the failure to reliably calculate these payments.

Figuring out how much premium subsidy an individual or family is entitled to requires that the Healthcare.gov “hub” communicate across servers housed at state Medicaid agencies, the Internal Revenue Service, Health and Human Services, and the Department of Homeland Security (among other federal agencies). That necessary data sharing has proven too much for the site’s architecture to handle.

This is what’s causing so many applications to get kicked out — but what about those applications that make it all the way through? At least half a dozen states have already said publicly that their systems are coming up with the wrong calculations.

It’s a sure bet that some consumers who make it through the web site’s maze, and enroll, will also have their subsidies calculated incorrectly.

Under current law, those who get more money than they were eligible for will see the excess payments clawed back on their subsequent years’ tax return.

As for the second category of subsidies, the cost sharing subsidies, the problems could be even worse.

Unlike subsidies for premiums, these subsidies are subject to cuts under the sequester. (The Commonwealth Fund drafted a lucid but unfortunately little-noticed summary of these problems earlier this year). What this means is that some of the reductions consumers expect in cost of their medical care will never materialize.

This will hit hardest those who actually use their healthcare insurance, especially people with catastrophic medical bills.

These cost-sharing subsidies are based on income, and are higher for lower income individuals. Right now, when consumers go to Healthcare.gov to select a plan, the web site isn’t baking in these cuts. Everyone is getting a blatantly false picture of how much the new coverage really costs.

These cost sharing subsidies represent a big piece of the overall relief that consumers were supposed to receive. Their 10-year total is $149.

The Office of Management and Budget has confirmed that cost-sharing subsidies are subject to sequester. (See page 23 of OMB’s report on sequester, it lists cost sharing subsidies as subject to sequestration but not premium subsidies). For its part, the Obama Administration hasn’t even begun to factor this into their numbers.

As a consequence, patients won’t know what they will owe for doctor visits; prescriptions; or their hospital stays — until the bill arrives.

Right now, the Obama Administration is suggesting that it will eventually force the health plans to absorb this shortfall. A May 31, 2013 report from the Congressional Research Service, titled “Budget Control Act: Potential Impact of Sequestration on Health Reform Spending, ”contained a tantalizing footnote that hinted as much.

Footnote 42 read: “The impact of sequestration is unclear. ACA entitles certain low-income exchange enrollees to coverage with reduced cost sharing and requires the participating insurers to provide that coverage. Sequestration does not change that requirement. Insurers presumably will still have to provide required coverage to qualifying enrollees but they will not receive the full subsidy to cover their increased costs.” Translation: Insurers are going to have to eat the shortfall.

But there’s little chance that the insurers are going to absorb these costs, or can.

Given the failed launch of Obamacare, many insurers will be looking at far lower enrollment numbers, and losses on their new exchange health plans. Want proof? Expect Wall Street analysts to cut their earnings projections on the major health plans in the coming weeks.

If the Obama Administration saddles insurers with this additional cost, many plans would probably exit the market. The entire program would fail fast. Instead, the Obama Administration will have to seek relief from Congress, to prevent the sequester cuts from hitting these cost-sharing subsidies.

After the recent budget showdown, it’s hard to imagine that relief coming easily.

Taken together, all of these problems mean that many consumers will end up getting subsidies they weren’t qualified for. As I wrote in the Wall Street Journal on the day that the Healthcare.gov web site launched, Washington will have to claw the money back a year after consumers spent those checks. These problems create a massive pay-and-chase problem as people move in and out of the exchanges and get subsidies they won’t even know that they didn’t deserve. This mess will make today’s IT troubles look tame.

Today’s problems will only get worse when people try and reconcile their new insurance coverage with their medical needs. Providers could also get stuck with some of the costs of what insurance didn’t cover because the subsidies were miscalculated. We could see providers start to pull out of these networks.

This could help explain signs that providers are holding back, even this late in the implementation process, and taking a wait and see approach. A Morgan Stanley survey out today, of 124 nonprofit hospital executives, found that 62% of respondents had still not signed any exchange contracts as of September.

Of the 38% of hospitals that have signed exchange contracts, the majority has signed contracts with fewer than 10% of their managed care partners. (Given the way enrollment is unfolding, it’s hard to see why hospitals that were taking cautious approach to contracting would jump in now, or offer up discounts).

For all of these reasons, the Obama Administration should approach its failed rollout with much more humility and candor.

These web site woes aren’t merely “glitches”. They flow from the hyper-engineered, technocratic way that the entire healthcare program was designed. The same design features are going to punish consumers when they try to use their new health plans.

Holmes defense, prosecutors resume evidence battle

James Holmes returns to court for another round of skirmishes over what evidence can be used against him when he goes on trial for the Colorado theater shootings.

Pretrial hearings resume Monday as defense lawyers and prosecutors argue over any scrap of evidence that could be used to bolster or weaken Holmes' claim that he was insane at the time of the 2012 Aurora shootings.

Holmes pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to charges of killing 12 people and injuring 70. His lawyers say he was having a psychotic episode.

Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty, but first they must convince a jury Holmes was sane _ that he knew the difference between right and wrong.

Trial is scheduled to start in February.

On Monday, attorneys are to argue over whether statements Holmes made to police can be used as evidence.

The defense contends police illegally kept Holmes from seeing an attorney for more than 13 hours, and that anything he told officers in that time can't be used against him. A former Holmes attorney has testified she tried to tell police they could not speak to him. Police said they questioned Holmes anyway, without his attorney present.

Last week, police acknowledged they knew that two attorneys had asked to speak with Holmes after his arrest and that Holmes had asked for an attorney.

Prosecutors argue police had a duty to ask Holmes about possible accomplices and about bombs found at his apartment because lives were in danger. The prosecution says police couldn't wait until after Holmes met with a lawyer.

Attorneys are to argue this week whether Holmes' telephone and bank records and items seized from his apartment can be used as evidence.

Obama to call healthcare website glitches 'unacceptable' as fix sought

President Barack Obama will declare the glitches in a new healthcare website "unacceptable" on Monday and outline ways for consumers to sign up for insurance while his team scrambles to fix problems that have tainted the rollout of his signature healthcare law.

Fresh from two weeks of budget battles that have consumed Washington, Obama will hold an event at 11:25 a.m. (1525 GMT) in the White House Rose Garden with consumers, small business owners, and pharmacists who have been affected by the new law.

The move is the highest-profile step in a broad damage control effort that the administration has launched since technical problems with the website, healthcare.gov, have prevented Americans nationwide from signing up for a program that will largely define Obama's domestic policy legacy.

"The president will directly address the technical problems with HealthCare.gov - troubles that he and his team find unacceptable - and discuss the actions he has pushed for to make it easier for consumers to comparison shop and enroll for insurance while work continues around the clock to improve the website," a White House official said on Sunday.

The president will say the product itself and the goal behind it - insuring millions of uninsured Americans - are good despite the problems that have plagued its rollout.

Meanwhile, the Department of Health and Human Services said in a blog post it was bringing in a "tech surge" of people from inside and outside government to help iron out glitches in the online insurance exchanges that are a central part of the program known as "Obamacare," which launched on October 1.

Obama's event, the HHS blog, and comments from Democrats on Sunday television news shows demonstrated a full-on push to offset criticism from Republicans and opponents of the law who say its rollout is representative of wider issues.

Republicans in Congress have chastised Obama's top health adviser, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, for declining their invitation to testify about the glitches to an oversight panel on October 24.

Officials stressed on Sunday that the problems were being addressed.

"I think that there's no one more frustrated than the president at the difficulty in the website," Treasury Secretary Jack Lew said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Obama told aides in a recent Oval Office meeting that the administration had to take responsibility for the fact that the website was not ready on time.

Administration officials are expected to travel the country in the coming weeks to encourage people to sign up on the exchanges, targeting areas where there are high percentages of uninsured, according to one official.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is expected to provide private health coverage to an estimated 7 million uninsured Americans through the new online marketplaces that opened for enrollment in all 50 states on October 1.

But the website, the administration's online portal for consumers in 36 states, was hobbled by problems including error messages, garbled text and delays loading pages.

COMMITTED TO DOING BETTER

Administration officials blame the problems partly on an unexpectedly high volume of visitors in its first 10 days. According to HHS, there were more than 19 million visits to the website.

"We are committed to doing better," the department said in its blog post on Sunday.

Despite the problems, it said, other parts of the system were functioning well.

"Individuals have been able to verify their eligibility for credits, enabling them to shop for, and enroll in, low- or even no-cost health plans," the department said.

"We have updated the site several times with new code that includes bug fixes. Our team has called in additional help to solve some of the more complex technical issues we are encountering."

Late on Saturday the White House reported nearly half a million Americans had applied for health insurance through the federal and state exchanges provided by Obamacare.

Many Republicans were criticizing the program long before its rocky launch. A 16-day partial government shutdown that ended last week was precipitated by Republican demands to delay or defund Obamacare.

Republican Senator Ted Cruz, who led that campaign, vowed on Sunday to step-up his opposition, even though his tactics have been called a mistake by members of his own party.

"I would do anything, and will continue to do anything, to stop the train wreck that is Obamacare," Cruz said on ABC's "This Week."

Lew said the program's test would be in January, when the actual coverage starts for people who have enrolled by December 15.

"I think that if we get that right, everyone will regret that the early weeks were choppy on the website. But the test is: are people getting coverage and are they getting the care that they need? And we're confident we're going to be on track to do that," Lew said on NBC.

Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader in the U.S. House of Representatives, acknowledged problems with the Obamacare launch, but said they should be understood in the context of the program's size.

"Any system that deals with that many millions of people frequently does have a glitch," Pelosi told ABC News' "This Week."

"It has to be fixed, but what doesn't have to be fixed is the fact that tens of millions more people had access to affordable quality health care and no longer will have a pre-existing condition bar you from getting affordable health care."

Obama said in an interview with National Public Radio on October 1 that he was prepared for some problems in the early months of Obamacare as healthcare exchanges were launched.

GOP, Boehner take shutdown hit in new CNN poll

Washington -- Just more than half the public says that it's bad for the country that the GOP controls the House of Representatives, according to a new national poll conducted after the end of the partial government shutdown.

And the CNN/ORC International survey also indicates that more than six in 10 Americans say that Speaker of the House John Boehner should be replaced.

The poll was conducted Friday through Sunday, just after the end of the 16-day partial federal government shutdown that was caused in part by a push by House conservatives to try and dismantle the health care law, which is President Barack Obama's signature domestic achievement.

According to the survey, 54% say it's a bad thing that the GOP controls the House, up 11 points from last December, soon after the 2012 elections when the Republicans kept control of the chamber. Only 38% say it's a good thing the GOP controls the House, a 13-point dive from the end of last year.

This is the first time since the Republicans won back control of the House in the 2010 elections that a majority say their control of the chamber is bad for the country.

Majority want Boehner out

"We fought the good fight. We just didn't win," Boehner said at the end of the shutdown. And while he received a standing ovation at a closed gathering of House Republicans as the crisis came to a close, he may not see anything to applaud in the new poll.

"John Boehner fares just as badly as the GOP," CNN Polling Director Keating Holland said. "Sixty-three percent of all Americans think that Boehner should be replaced as Speaker of the House, a view shared by roughly half of all Republicans."

Fleischer: Shutdown deal is a 15-yard punt

According to the poll, only 30% of the public says Boehner, who became Speaker in January 2011, should continue in that role.

Congress near historic lows

The survey indicates that the approval rating for Congress remains near an all-time low. Only 12% of those questioned say they approve of the job Congress is doing, just two points higher than the historic low in CNN polling. And 86% give federal lawmakers a thumbs-down, also near the all-time high.

Forty-four percent say they approve of the job the President is doing with 52% saying they disapprove.

Four things we learned from government shutdown

"Barack Obama's numbers are pretty anemic, but he remains in much better shape than the GOP," Holland said. "Even though Obama's approval rating remains stuck in the mid-40s, it didn't take a hit during the shutdown -- 44% just before the shutdown began; 44% now."

According to the survey, 44% also say they have more confidence in Obama rather than the GOP in Congress to deal with the major issues facing the country today, a 5-point drop from last year; 31% say they have more confidence in congressional Republicans, unchanged from last December.

Obama wants new approach after shutdown

"The biggest change on that question is the 21% who volunteer that they don't have confidence in either side -- a remarkably high number that is roughly double its usual level," Holland said.

 What's next for the GOP

Majority favor health care law or say it doesn't go far enough

Even though they lost this round, conservatives vow to continue their fight to dismantle Obamacare. And they point to major troubles with the rollout of the website where Americans without insurance can enroll in the new health care exchanges.

The president is expected to address the law, and the glitches, at an event Monday at the White House.

According to the poll, just more than four in 10 say they favor the law, with 56% opposed to it.

But of those opposed, 38% say they are against the law because they think it's too liberal and 12% say it's not liberal enough. That means that 53% either support Obamacare, or say it's not liberal enough.

The health care numbers are little changed from late last month, just before the start of the shutdown.

Congressional fight over Obamacare turns to website woes

The poll was conducted for CNN by ORC International, with 841 adults nationwide questioned by telephone. The survey's overall sampling error is plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Charges possible for Boy Scouts leaders who toppled Utah rock formation

A group of Boy Scouts leaders may face criminal charges after purposely knocking over an ancient Utah desert rock formation and posting a video of the incident online, authorities say 

The men were leading a group of 14 to 16-year-old Boy Scouts on a trip to Goblin Valley State Park when they said they noticed the top of the rock formation was loose and feared it was dangerous.

"This is about saving lives," Dave Hall, who shot the video, told The Associated Press on Friday. "One rock at a time."

The rock formation is about 170 million years old, Utah State Parks spokesman Eugene Swalberg said. The park in central Utah is dotted with thousands of the eerie, mushroom shaped sandstone formations.

In a video posted on Facebook, Glenn Taylor of Highland, Utah, can be seen last Friday wedging himself between one formation and a boulder to knock a large rock off the formation's top. Taylor and his two companions can then be seen cheering, high-fiving and dancing.

"This is not behavior that is appreciated or should exist in state parks," Swalberg told the Deseret News. "This has been formed for literally millions of years, and it's supposed to last for a long time. It doesn't need individuals doing the work of Mother Nature."

Hall, who is also a scoutmaster from Highland, said some of their Scouts were jumping on the structures and they noticed a large boulder on top of one structure was loose.

"My conscience won't let me walk away knowing that kids could die," Hall said.

While safety was their motivation, Hall said, it was exciting to knock it over, and that's why they reacted with high-fives and cheers in the video.

"You can't have a rock the size of a car that you can push with one hand, and have it roll, and not have an adrenaline rush," Hall said. "It was a crazy, exciting moment."

Taylor told Salt Lake City news organizations on Thursday that he felt the rock move when he put his hand on it.

He said after he knocked the formation over, he wished he hadn't and he realized he should have contacted a park ranger. But he also said he feels he did the right thing.

"As it is, I feel guilty because I have a conscience," he told the Deseret News. "But my conscience also says I did the right thing."

Hall, too, said he wished they had contacted a park ranger, but did not wish they hadn't knocked it over.

Boy Scouts of America spokesman Deron Smith confirmed the men are members of the organization, saying in a statement that the organization is "shocked and disappointed by this reprehensible behavior."

Boy Scout troops spend countless hours in state and national parks, guided by the principle of leaving nature the way they find it, Smith said.

"The isolated actions of these individuals are absolutely counter to our beliefs and what we teach," Smith said. "We are reviewing this matter and will take appropriate action."

Swalberg said State Parks authorities are conducting a criminal investigation.

"This is highly, highly inappropriate," Swalberg told the Salt Lake Tribune. "This is not what you do at state parks. It's disturbing and upsetting."

Brent Langston with the Emery County Attorney's Office said his agency is aware of the incident has not yet started evaluating whether they'll file charges.

“The county attorney’s office has spoken with the state park representative but as of this date, no reports have been submitted and no charges have been filed. The county attorney’s office will review the case upon completion of the investigation and determine what action to take at that point,” the office said in a press release obtained by ETV 10 News Friday afternoon.

The men involved could face a misdemeanor or a felony depending on how much officials determine the formation was worth, Langston told the Tribune.

"Some things can't be replaced, like photographs in a family album, but they have great sentimental value," he said.

Hall said he and Taylor were both "immensely sorry for any damage that we may have caused," or any embarrassment they brought to the Boy Scouts or anyone else.

But he also said, "One more rock falling to the ground is not going to destroy the beauty of the park. Eventually, the erosion brings all of them down."